Florinda Donner-Grau in conversation with Alexander Blair-Ewart
Florinda Donner is a former colleague and traveling companion dream of Carlos Castaneda and the acclaimed author "The Dream of the Witch" and "Shabono." His latest book, "Being in the Dream: An Introduction to the World of the Wizards", an autobiographical account of his stop, sometimes involuntary and often bewildering initiation
in the work of being in the dream, has been published recently and will be available in Canada in Spring. Anthropologist and magical, Florinda Donner lives in Los Angeles, California and Sonora, Mexico. ALEJANDRO
BLAIR-Ewart: Well, the beginning of the book, you talk about how it fits into a living legend. Can you talk about that mythology? Florinda
DONNER: It is a living legend. Well, the myth of the Nagual is a myth, but myth is revived again and again. See, the myth that there is the myth that there is a Nagual and his troop of people, apprentices, sorcerers. Actually I'm not Don apprentice Juan. I was an apprentice Castaneda who was an apprentice of Don Juan. I am one of the "sisters" who were really women in Florinda, and she gave me her name. So in that sense it is a myth that exists. To them did not care that I called them witches. I had no negative connotations for them. From the Western point of view, the idea of \u200b\u200ba sorcerer, or witch, always has a negative connotation. I could not care less, because for these people, the abstract quality of witchcraft [sic] nullified automatically any positive or negative connotation of the term. We are apes on one level, but we have this other side of magic. In that sense we relive a myth.
ABE: So the myth of the Nagual is that there is a unbroken lineage from the ancient Toltec directly to modern times. I wonder if I can get you to talk about what the pattern is really myth. Florinda
D: Well, there is no pattern of myth. That's why the whole thing is so confusing and so difficult. When I was first involved with these people my main application, my primary aberration, as I came to call him later, was that he wanted to have some rules and regulations on what the hell had to do. There was none. There is no map. For each new group has to find its own way of dealing with this idea of \u200b\u200btrying break the barriers of perception. The only way we can break the barriers of perception, as Don Juan, is that we need energy. All our energy and deployed in the world to present the idea of \u200b\u200bself - what we like who we want to be perceived, how others perceive us. Don Juan says that 90% of our energy is deployed doing that, and nothing new can come to us. There is nothing open to us because, no matter how "no egos" we are, or pretend to be, or want to believe that we are not. Even, say, those "enlightened" or gurus that I found, once Carlos Castaneda walking trying to find
guru -; the ego of those people was so huge in how they wanted to be perceived in the world. That is, as Don Juan, exactly what is killing us. Nothing is open to us.
ABE: A real Nagual, a real visionary would not care particularly how the world sees it, is not it? Florinda
D: No, do not care. But they still have to fight it. Castaneda has been at it for thirty years. And I for more than twenty, and is continuous and never stops.
ABE: What is the nature of the battle? Because you use the language of the warrior. What is the nature of the battle? What is it you are fighting?
Florinda D: The ego.
ABE: The ego. Florinda
D: Not even the ego, the ego is an idea, because if we were really under the surface ego would not know what it is. It is possible to cut this idea, this idea that we overblown ego. Because if it is a negative idea or a positive idea, does not really matter. The energy used to sustain the idea is the same.
ABE: There is tremendous emphasis on this tradition of winning what is called importance. Florinda
personal
D: importance, exactly. That is the main battle. Turn off your internal dialogue. For even when we isolate ourselves somewhere, we're still talking constantly us. Internal dialogue that never stops. And what is the internal dialogue? Always justified, no matter what. Repeat things, events, what we could say or could have or have done, what we feel or not feel. The emphasis is always on me. We are constantly dripping this mantra - I ... I ... I, silent or verbally. ABE
Then an opening arises when ... Florinda
D: ... when you turn off the internal dialogue. Automatically. We do not have to do anything. And the reason that people reject as untrue Castaneda is because it is too simple. But its sheer simplicity makes it the hardest thing to do for us. There are about six people in our world committed to the same purpose. And the difficulty we all have is completely off the internal dialogue. It's okay if we are not threatened. But when certain buttons are pressed, our reactions are so ingrained in us that is so easy to be mounted on autopilot. See, there is a great exercise that Don Juan prescribes-the idea of \u200b\u200brecapitulation. The idea is that you recapitulates his life, basically. And there is a psychological recapitulation. You want to bring back the energy that made it all the interactions you had with people throughout their life course and start from now and back in time. But if it really makes a good recap, you discover that by the time they had three or four years old and has learned all their reactions. After we become more sophisticated, we can hide them better, but basically the model of how we interact with the world and our fellow has already been established. ABE
So here's the picture, or the consciousness of a kind of human being traveling on a road parallel to the world of Tonal, or the world of the person, social person. This other world, his other opening, something that apparently has always been there. Florinda
D: Yes, always there. Is available to us all. Nobody wants to get into it, or people think they want to penetrate it, but as Don Juan said, the search is involved in something else, because a person seeking to know what you are looking for.
ABE: Yes, that's clear. Florinda
D: The disappointment that many people who are "seekers" have to Castaneda is that when he speaks, well, they have already made a determination of how things should be. And they are not open. Even when they are listening, are not open to anything else, because you know how it should be, what they are seeking.
ABE: My version of that is that I'm not interested in self improvement I am interested in auotorealización, but not in self-improvement, and I do not care if I return in the recapitulation process or not something good and spiritual and acceptable because it will cut elements of madness, and everything else. Florinda
D: Exactly.
ABE: But that is a deeply disturbing to most people. Florinda
D: It is, yes, definitely. See, we believe in this idea that we are essentially energy beings. Don Juan said that everything has to do with how much power we have. Our energy to fight, even fighting the idea of \u200b\u200bego, requires an enormous amount of energy. And always take the path easier. Return to what we know, even us who are involved in this long ago. It would be easier to just say, oh, to hell with this, you know, I will just a little self-pity. But the thing is, that this moment of compassion can send it right back to square one again.
ABE: Except for one thing we both know, Florinda, which is this: once you pass a certain point within you, if you have reached this silence, I think, even for a moment, if it is real ... Florinda
D: ... can stop it. Exactly. But to reach this moment of silence you need energy. You can stop it, what don Juan called the pause momentary, the cubic centimeter of luck, you can stop it immediately.
ABE: And once that happens, you will never be the same person again. Florinda
D: Absolutely.
ABE: And you might want to return to their old ways and indulge, but can not get no satisfaction from them. Florinda
D: Exactly. No, you can not. Satisfacción.Eso There is absolutely correct. I think if we could really achieve ... say, that reached a critical mass that feeling or that knowledge, we could change things in the world. The
reason that nothing can be changed is that we are not willing to change us same, no matter whether they are political doctrines and social or economic problems, what is the matter with the forests and the environment now? How can we expect someone to change if we do not want to change ourselves Change is false, the change is restructuring or repeating parts, but no change. We are basically predatory beings .. That has not changed in us. Predation could use that energy to change our course, but do not want to change ourselves.
ABE: Now, in the myth, the psychic individual and / or Nagual is chosen by providence, the unknown, ineffable. Florinda
D: ... actually selected. Carlos has been "touched" energy. Let's look at our energy configuration .... some people are essentially different energy. They call Carlos a three-pronged Nagual, Don Juan was a four-point Nagual. What really is the link? Basically, they have more power than the rest of the group, and that is something very curious. Why the hell did it or why, for example, are always men Naguales? We Naguales women in the lineage, but men have more energy, which have been selected so far. They are no better. There were people in the world of Don Juan that were infinitely more spiritual, better prepared, better men knowledge in the sense that they knew more, and it makes no difference. Not that it is more or less than anyone. It just has that energy to guide.
ABE: And you can give some of that energy to someone and give them a boost. Florinda
D: We draw from that energy, yes. Not that you get that energy, but he does, if for nothing else, at least not become anything that the present world. For example, in this regard, be with Castaneda for a long time, the worldly goodies that have been presented to him are incredible. He has never wavered in his way. And I, personally, I would say now that if it had been put in that position for many years, I honestly can not say I have been so perfect. And you see, I have to admit that, because of course the worst thing you can do is try to hide certain things. And for me to have witnessed Castaneda's journey, I mean, there was incredible worldly things that he had he never took. And you see, this requires energy. That's where the energy comes, that's when you need one who is then the group leader will point to that path. Because if someone else does not have the energy had been the Nagual, could succumb.
ABE: can succumb a Nagual and recover?
Florinda D: No, no chance.
ABE: How come? Florinda
D: Go back to the myth. The eagle flies in a straight line. No turns. You could say, well, you have to run harder after her. But what does that mean? It's a metaphor.
ABE: So the Nagual works in different ways to meet the ongoing myth. Florinda
D: Don Juan had more people behind him. Energetically he had a larger mass, so he could practically throw you in and put it somewhere. Charles did not do that. For him, whatever make the people working with him, and there are six of us - is a matter of choice. That's it. Our decision is all that counts, nothing
more. He did not entice us, he did not beg, he will not tell us what to do. We need to know. Having been exposed to this for so long, have been with Don Juan, any way we can try to move forward, must be sufficient for him. There was nothing that the force to make sure that we stay on this path.
ABE: Naguales different work in different ways. Is it true that Carlos Castaneda, I've heard, is described as the Nagual of stalkers? Florinda
D: Yes, but I'd say ... I do not know. He is a dreamer.
ABE: Yes, that, too. Florinda
D: So, what is this idea of \u200b\u200bdreaming, dreaming and waking? It is a different state. Not that you're drugged No, you are entirely normal and consistent, but something you play on a different level energy.
ABE: There's something in his eyes, too. Florinda
D: Yes
ABE: Something in your eyes that is also learning to look at two worlds simultaneously. Florinda
D: Exactly. And again this idea is that it has broken the barrier of perception in terms of what we see, anything that we perceive has been defined by the social order, no matter what. Intellectually, we want to accept that perception is culturally defined, but will not accept in any other level. But it is absurd because it exists on another level. And I can only say, because we have been involved with these people, and certainly am in the world, it is possible to see in these two levels and be fully consistent and clean in both.
SEA: Talk about impeccable. What is impeccable? Florinda
D: You know exactly what to do. Especially for women, are bred to be very small creatures. Women are so small is incredible. And I'm not saying that men are not, but with men, no matter how we want to express it, men are always on the winning side. Are losers or not, are still male. Our world is a male world, no matter how persistent they are or not, whether or not believe in any kind of feminist ideology does not really matter. Men are the winners in our society.
ABE: In the book you talk about how women are actually enslaved by their attachment to the sexuality of men. Can you talk about that? Florinda
D: Definitely. First, for me one of the most shocking to which I refused and refused to believe for some time, was this idea of \u200b\u200bthe fog created by sexual contact. They even went further to explain that basically what really follows is that, when we have sexual communication, when the male ejaculates, not only have the semen, but in that moment of starting energy, what really happens is that Don Juan called "Worms energy 'filaments. And these filaments remain in the body. From a biological standpoint, these filaments ensure that the return to the same male and female care for the offspring. The man will recognize that this is their offspring by the filaments in an entirely energy.
ABE: What is the exchange of energy in the sexual encounter? Florinda
D: She feeds the energy man. Don Juan believed that women are the cornerstone to perpetuate the human species, and the bulk of that energy comes from them not only to gestate, give birth and nurture their offspring, but also to secure the place of man in the whole process .
ABE: So then the woman is enslaved by this fog. How do you free yourself? Florinda
D: If we talk about it from a biological standpoint, is enslaved? The magicians say yes, in the sense that she always sees herself through male. You have no choice. I used to be unbearably angry with the whole thing and I checked again and again with them, and return to this idea, mostly because it was early in the seventies when the women's movement was at its peak. And I said, 'No, women have come a long way. Look what they've accomplished, "and they said:" No, have not achieved anything. " For them, the sexual revolution, and they were not Puritans were not interested in morality, they are only interested in power - so they said that for women to be sexually liberated, in some ways the enslaved even more, because suddenly energy feeding were not only a man, but to many men.
ABE: That's interesting. Florinda
D: So for them that was absurd, and whatever happened in that time, he foresaw that in the seventies. He said they were going to be in his face, which would debilitadas.Y are. The few women who have spoken, I gave some lectures, and books - and when I talked about this, it is interesting that the women agree. And I first thought I would have great difficulty with this subject, but especially women who have gone through the process of having multiple lovers said they were exhausted, and do not know why.
ABE: So we're talking about something beyond the sexual. Florinda
D: Originally, beyond the sexual aspect, the female, the uterus ensures that women are the closest is the spirit in the process of approaching knowledge as being in the dream. Male cones rise, and the very definition of the cone, is over. It's an energetic force. He fights because he is not close to the spirit, or as we like to call this great energy force out there. According to the sorcerers, the woman is exactly the opposite. The cone is inverted. Have a direct link to it, because the uterus for the sorcerer is not just a reproductive organ, is a body for dreams, a second brain.
ABE: Or heart. Florinda
D: O heart, and they apprehend the knowledge directly. Never allowed us to define what is knowledge in our society or elsewhere. And the women who create or help develop the body of knowledge, they have to in masculine terms. Say a woman investigates. If no compliance with the rules established by the male general agreement, not be published. They may deviate slightly, but always within the same array. They are not allowing women to do anything else.
ABE: So, the witch is away from the hypnotism of it. Florinda
D: The social, yes. It is very interesting that you mention the idea of \u200b\u200bhypnotism, because Don Juan always said at the time of the psychology that Freud was, that we were too passive. Mesmer or would have followed Freud. We never developed truly mesmeric things that other way ...
ABE: Yes, the path of energy. Florinda
D: ... and this never would have happened if Freud had not had the choice.
ABE: Well, now lost. Florinda
D: No, not really, because all we do, who knows how many generations take? Let's say has been discredited intellectually, but all our cultural baggage ... yet speak in those terms, even people who do not even know who Freud. It's part of our language, our culture.
ABE: Yes, I know. It is very frustrating dealing with people who are close to all of reality from this trite psychological standpoint. Florinda
D: Yes, and not even know where it comes. It's part of our cultural heritage. ABE
.: So the witch is released from this condition. Florinda
D: Well, free in the sense that once he sees what the social order really is-an agreement, at least more cautious in accepting it. People say, "Oh but look at how different the life time of your grandmother or your mother." I say no. It is different only in degree. But nothing is different, If I had lived my life the way it had been set for me ... yes, I was educated, had a better chance. But that's all. Still would have ended the same way they were over. Married frustrated with children who by now probably would hate me or they would hate me.
ABE: I keep trying to get you cross that line now, and talk about what happens after you have understood that there is that slavery and begins to get rid of it. What is it that opens to the perception? Florinda
D: Everything.
ABE: Everything.
Florinda
D: First, in their dreams you can see. For example, my work is done dreaming. Not that I have to do the job, but that is dreaming.
ABE: Now you're using the word 'dreaming' in this specific sense, which is in this tradition. Can you talk about what is really? Florinda
D: In the traditional sense, when we fall asleep as soon as we started getting into a dream, then we are half awake, half asleep and still conscious, you know by the work of Castaneda that point Lace is agitated, starts to move, and what the sorcerer wants to do is use that natural change (That happens to every one of us) to move into other realms. And for that you need an exquisite energy. Again it comes down to energy. It takes an extraordinary amount of energy because they want to be aware of that moment and use it without waking.
ABE: Yes, a huge accomplishment.
Florinda D: For me, it is very easy to get, use it. The thing is that I had no control at that moment, though I have it now, about what would happen. But he could enter this state they call .. I mean, women were not interested in calling it 'second attention'; are interested call 'dreaming awake', it is the same thing. And they reach different levels, and what makes the end of the dream in this state is to have the same control you have in everyday life. And that is exactly what the Wizards do. It's the same thing, and there is no difference.
ABE: So you can now exist in another reality? Florinda
D: Well, I really do not know. See, we have no language to talk about it, except do it in familiar terms. Then, oddly, when I asked, "Do I exist in another reality"?, Yes and no. It is not really accurate to say that because it is a reality. There is no difference. Say there are different levels, like an onion. But all the same. And it becomes very rare. How am I going to talk about it? What metaphors? Our metaphors are already well defined by what we already know.
ABE: Yes, the problem of language. Florinda
D: See, we have no language to talk about what really happens when you are in the 'second attention', or 'were dreamed awake. " But it is as real as any other reality. What is reality? It is, again, a consensus. And see, the thing is I just want to agree with this on an intellectual level. But more than just an intellectual agreement. Say you can be more. And that's, again we return to the same: everything is related to energy.
ABE: That's right. But also linked to something called "attempted." Florinda
D: Exactly. But to catch the 'try' .. See, the 'intent' is out there, is that force-don Juan was not interested in religion but in a strange way is exactly what you might call God, the supreme being, the unique strength, spirit. See, every culture knows what it is. And the thing is, Don Juan, again, said he was not asked. Requested, and to ask, you need energy. Because not only needs energy to catch him, but you want to stay engaged.
ABE: Yes So this thing of trying, say it is an easy word to say, but it really is quite a complex operation. Florinda
D: Yes, very, very complex. A Don Juan and his people did not care to talk about sorcery and witchcraft, with all these negative connotations, much less what we call practice. For them it was very, very abstract. For them, witchcraft is an abstraction, and it was the idea of \u200b\u200bexpanding the limits of perception. Because for them, our life choices are limited by the social order. We have unlimited possibilities, but to accept the social choices we put a limit to our limitless possibilities.
ABE: And human beings still seem ... Florinda
D: ...constantemente buscando eso que se ha...
ES: ... perdido...
FLORINDA D: ... .perdido o enjaulado por el orden social. Ponen persianas en nosotros en el momento en que nacemos. Mire la manera en que forzamos a los niños para que perciban en la manera en que nosotros percibimos.
ABE: Sí, la transmisión de cultura.
FLORINDA D: Es el ejemplo más perfecto. Los niños en verdad perciben más, obviamente, mucho más. Pero tienen que poner algún orden a ese caos, y nosotros, por supuesto, somos los maestros perennes de lo que es apropiado percibir dentro de nuestro grupo. Y si no se acatan a eso, mi dios, les disparamos con medicamentos, o los cerramos con llave in therapy with psychiatrists.
ABE: There have been traditions that have long existed, and now in the last twenty or thirty years in particular, we started hearing about them. Why Castaneda wrote his books?
Florinda D.: Because it was a task, a task of witchcraft that Don Juan gave him. Castaneda is the last of his line. No one else. There is a group of Indians with whom we work. See, Don Juan, in a strange way made almost a mistake to Castaneda, when I first was exposed, whatever has been the design or power of the spirit that brought face to face Juan Castaneda. And he met immediately. circle of learners "I think it is in" Tales of Power "and" The Second Ring of Power "where he talks about people in Oaxaca and Sisters and all those people. And then, years later, Don Juan realizes that this is not the way in which you Castaneda. Castaneda was even more abstract than Don Juan. His path was a totally different way. And then when he met these other people, because people who are with Castaneda, all of us, we met Don Juan before we knew Castaneda was really only five of us before, four of us and Castaneda.
ABE: So had the task of sorcerer escrbir books. What I am trying to make is that this knowledge just as knowledge is now available and millions of people in this way. What is the purpose of that? Florinda
D: Well, someone has to be engaged by it. And people do. For us, for our Western ape mentality, like Don Juan always called us, see, we must be engaged first intellectually, because obviously this is how our whole being works When I was in school, was just one step to go to graduate school, and had been in this world for two or three years, and said, "What am I continuing school? Why should I get a PhD? That is completely redundant." And Don Juan and All the women said that it is absolutely redundant, because to deny something is to be understood in the most sophisticated. To say that you are not interested in philosophy, or anthropology, is nonsense. You can only say after having made at least some effort to understand. There is no reason to reject it, and when he dives into the world of the 'second attention' and 'dreaming awake', your mind must be well trained to emerge again, to leave with the knowledge. Because if you do not have the brain or mind to do so, you can also just go throwing stones in the desert because it is meaningless. And for them it was extremely important we were all very well trained. All those working within this small group have a title. Some historians, anthropologists, librarians.
ABE: So knowledge becomes available to millions of people, and people get hooked by it. Florinda
D: At some level, yes, yes.
ABE: And that also means that the tradition has now begun to grow that way? Florinda
D: I dunno. Judging by the mail Castaneda, he does not read, I would say yes. But then, most cosasl ... I mean, from time to time I open letters, and they are mad, most are Stooges. Some of them are serious hunters, and most are people just crazy (laughter). I mean they're crazy. Like, "I'm the new Nagual." or "I have been visited by you in dreams". I'm talking about things really extravagant.
ABE: Well, there are many levels that, as you know. But I think you women, sorcerers and all reality of Castaneda have really hit the mass of collective consciousness of North America in particular. Florinda
D: It's like you say, the work is there. There are many people reading it. And some are really very serious about it.
ABE: And some of them are people who are not native and have been involved in native spirituality. In some ways, the work comes from his group has had a tremendous effect on native spirituality crisp throughout this continent that has found a trail back to their traditions.
Florinda D.: See, the whole thing for Don Juan was not returning, because we caught back in myth and ritual. And for Don Juan, myth and ritual ... Myth in the sense that, yes, you are part of this matrix, but not in the sense that it will live by invoking certain rituals, certain powers that were, say, successful in the nineteenth century. Because, he said, that is exactly the fallacy, as originally a ritual is just to engage the attention. Once has been engaged, the ritual is left aside. As we are apes, we are of course off the ritual. People who really transcends a certain knowledge what exactly out of the ritual. Yet the rest of the body is mesmerized by the ritual.
ABE: Seeing the truth of that and the fact that Castaneda describes you as the new seers, how they arise? Florinda
D: Are the new viewers? For women it is very important this idea that the womb is not just a reproductive organ. To enable this, our intention must be different. Our attempt to change back again to energy. See, we really do not know means using the uterus as an organ to be, a light organ of intuition. For us, intuition is really something that has already been defined. There's no real insight because we sense with our brains. Don Juan was interested in women, and people always ask, "Well, how come there are always so many women? You make orgies? Is there any such things?. He said," No, because the male is has no uterus. He needs that magical "power of the uterus" (laughter). It is very important.
ABE: Let me make some technical questions, if possible, on behalf of my female readers. The uterus must be functioning completely. I mean, if a woman had her tubes tied, "the uterus still work? Florinda
D: Yes, if you do not have a hysterectomy.
ABE: As long as the uterus has been removed ... Florinda
D: ... if the uterus is there, yes.
ABE: So it can work. Florinda
D: Oh, absolutely. But all you need is to call this attempt. As some cults the Goddess - "When God Was A Woman" - and I was talking about a month ago with some women, all of which were in groups of goddesses. Every month go into the woods, climbing on a sequoia and make grooves in the forest, trees, and oh, they take a great time hanging out, discussing, doing rituals in the River. And I said, "But what the hell are you doing? They return home, and then they are stupid they always open their legs whenever the master says:" I need you "And they were stunned. I mean really upset because do not like to hear that. They said, "But we felt so good during those three days." And I said, "But what is the sense of feeling good for three days if their lives continue in the same way? What we are resting? Because our lives will continue. Why not change? This idea of \u200b\u200bthe rituals and return to the native beliefs, even on some level, did not work back then .. We were conquered.
ABE: So it's something you have to live now in a completely authentic.
Florinda D.: has to be fluid, the practitioner must be fluid to accept those changes. Even within us things are constantly changing, and we are so comfortable in a row until something pops us. And we notice but we have to be fluid. Just give us this energy flow.
ABE: How do you build energy? Florinda
D: For starters, at least initially, was the idea of \u200b\u200bDon Juan of the best energy we have is sexual. It is the only power we really have, and most of it is wasted.
ABE: Now, is the same for men and women? Florinda
D: Of course it is the same for both. The only thing for women is that they take the burden of feeding energy to people through their filaments. So in that sense, it is worse for women. And for him too, because the man is hooked. Energetically it is hooked, no matter what. And we have all sorts of psychological explanations. People with whom we have dealt with issues and we can not conceive out of our minds. See we have this gray barrier description, but what actually happens is a completely different level, which we do not want to talk because it is part of our cultural heritage.
ABE: So, the primary way to increase power is to be celibate? Florinda
D: Well, it is very difficult, but it would be a good try, at least to start.
ABE: If a woman is called to this path, if she is engaged, or a man get caught by this tradition, how would they know? How would they know who have been engaged by a tradition and not just for some damn obsession? Florinda
D: For example, books Castaneda explained it very clearly .. . If you carefully read Castaneda's books, they are almost manuals.
ABE: Yes, I know. And read again and again and finally understood what they speak. Florinda
D: You know that something has changed, because I feel energy And then there's all this that you can abandon the idea of \u200b\u200bthe ego. Not that you're going to laugh at others. But that is negligible and does not even try them because who the hell are we to judge anyone? But you know that is not part of that, in the sense of social agreement, and is almost like a false part of you that you are pasting, you have to run in the world. You must present a coherent picture of me. You know, Don Juan always said that if any real change takes place there is no way to refuse, reject anything that means. I do not know. Why the attempt comes in contact with us? I really do not know. There are two people who have contacted us, and there they are. I mean, we're never together, each one lives on his own, and only from time to time we meet. Originally we had this little class when Castaneda was here. He teaches some very interesting movements, primarily to store energy. Then these people have been there for two years and are slowly changing. Y is amazing. See, if you let go of something, something you know.
ABE: You have published this book, for example, and I read it. Now, I have a physical picture of you, but my feelings are a sense of who you could be, or what could. Will not affect you that energy field, now that there is this book? Florinda
D: One of the things that Don Juan Castaneda made it clear to ... see, once the book is out, is out. She has nothing to do with you. To be wondering, living in the expectation - the book is doing well or not? - See, that's very difficult to remove. Because somehow you are involved. Letting go is really very, very difficult. I had two other books, Shabono and The Dream of the Witch, and was very easy. With this, it is the first time I talk about my involvement with Don Juan, is very difficult. And perhaps because for the first time I'm talking more openly - with others did not do anything. I am more involved with it. He has lectured at libraries to groups of people, which is very interesting, because as you said before, there are many people who are really seriously interested, but, again, intellectually.
ABE: Oh, I think I know people who have gone a little beyond the intellect in this. Florinda
D: There, I definitely think that, yes.
ABE: Why talk about different types of luminous bodies. There are people who read these books and suddenly this is your time of self-recognition. Florinda
D: Precisely, yes.
ABE: Now these books are they affecting a change in how people perceive themselves. Florinda
D: Yes Basically the goal is how we perceive the world and break all the parameters of perception, in terms of how we perceive ourselves, too. But we do not focus on the 'I'. We want to be witnesses. Because everything in our society is filtered through 'I' through 'my', we are unable to tell a story or recount an event without us the main character, always. See, Don Juan was interested in allowing the event to unfold itself, and then it becomes infinitely richer, because it opens. And even in the world, as an exercise, simply become a witness, not the protagonist. It's amazing what opens.
ABE: Now in this long journey, one of the things described in the literature is that the person, the seer and the Nagual, all reach a period of despair, where they are sure they will fail, that nothing will happen eventually. And the reason I talk about this is that I have a feeling really feel that this is now being shared by many people. Please talk about that a moment. Florinda
D: Yes, exactly. (Laughter) I'm going to join their depression (laughter). No, it's true. Something in us knows, and that is why there is urgency with Don Juan. The imperative from the point of view of Nature is the perpetuation of the species, and we are no longer interested in that we are interested in evolution, because evolution is an imperative equal if not greater, that of procreation. Because if we do not evolve, if not mutate into something different, we really to destroy this planet, I think hopelessly. We have destroyed our resources fully. If we have fifty or a hundred years as a planet, does not matter. Does not really matter. We as a species we are doomed. And in that sense, evolution is our only way out. And again, as Don Juan emphasizes, the evolution is in the hands of women, not men.
ABE: So as a male what do I do? "I just sit here and hope that women will save the world? Florinda
D: Yes and no. You see that man has to give up his power and he will not do, not peacefully. It will not. I'm not saying that you are beating his chest saying "do not give up my power." No, it is much more insidious than that.
ABE: Talk more about that. Florinda
D: Well, I think he's said. For example, okay, here are sensitive men who have been in groups of men, trying to accept their spirituality, and have been fully agree with their wives, their spouses, the female with which they are, but not quite . There are certain things that will not leave, it is too threatening. Even the whole idea of \u200b\u200bmen's movement originally started out as a truly spiritual movement. But something in the male is threatened. It is this fear of giving up something that some of them feel they have to be abandoned, so we can continue as a species. Certainly we know that the female will have be given time and is given time in the past for something to evolve. For example, to get straight, and when the vagina had to change positions, who had to adapt? Males. The penis had to grow larger. The female needs time again. And the man has to give it. From a male point of view, must give that time to the female uterus to try to switch to its secondary function.
ABE: That can not happen if the man is sex with the woman. Is that what you are saying? Florinda
D: No. See, there must be enough females to have that long to have to change something in the uterus. They have to crawl to a new possibility. Don Juan said that our evolution is attempted. See, that leap of the great flying reptiles, the idea of \u200b\u200bwings, was attempted. It was an act of attempted
ABE: That's very interesting. So you feel that today women around the world, sororities of different types, are trying a new human future? Florinda
D: They are not aware of that. Some women, I think, fully.
ABE: So the man will now take a back seat in the evolution of species. Florinda
D: Exactly. Not a back seat. Again, those are words that define a type of connotation positive / negative. No. You have to provide the time.
ABE: How can a man do that? Discuss this functionally. Florinda
D: See, we women are relegated to the status of second class citizens. No matter what power we still have no real power. We do not decide anything. Even to speak in small groups, is almost like hitting a huge iron door, because who decides who is in power, it will not give it up just like that. Look in terms of policy, say Washington or the capital where you live. I mean, do you think for a moment these men will even listen to what we saying? Not in the slightest. But some types of hole has to be for something new develops. Otherwise we are doomed. And for us this idea of \u200b\u200bsaving the planet, the environment, all we are really thinking that we will not survive as a species .. The earth certainly survive, it could go into some kind of horrendous winter, but eventually it will. But we as a species will not survive.
ABE: Why a woman would read the book 'Be In The Dream'? Florinda
D: Very interesting, hm. Well, if nothing else, I think people who have been interested in the work of Castaneda, would be interested to see it presented from the female perspective of someone who has been in this job for over twenty years. I approached the matter differently, probably more directly. The thing is perception. Even our human bodies, the body is, again, a consequence of perception. We are stuck as individuals, we are trapped in language, and that's exactly what the wizard, through the energy come out.
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