| Hanes Ealy: Well, I'm Hanes Ealy and my intent today is to talk to Florinda Donner Grau and try bring as much as possible about the world the sorcerers to the audience in an hour. I'll let this Florinda herself. Florinda Donner: So, I do this myself? HE: I will ask you to say who you are and what you will do today. FD: Oh. In fact do not really know what I do today. I think that, well ... Florinda Donner I am an anthropologist. I have worked with Carlos Castaneda for over twenty years as a student of anthropology, was drawn into the world of witches and I've been there ever since. HE: Well, the first question that comes to mind Florinda is that the world does not accept volunteers witches .. FD: Well, no volunteers in the sense of "If I want to be in the world of sorcerers" Of course we have a strange way to be entirely voluntary since no one is brought into this world against his will. However ... I do not know if you know? We have been giving a series of readings in bookstores lately, Taisha, me and Carol Tiggs, and that is the recurring question "Do you see?" What makes them so special? "o. .. I mean, nothing makes us so special (laughs). We are truly and I do not mean false modesty, we are very ordinary people and something very special has happened. The idea that there is voluntary in the sense that this is an extremely arduous and lonely world. From what we've realized now that we have been talking to different groups of people, is that most do not say all, but most people are ... are used to hold weekend workshops and seminars and they want answers, they want very specific answers in the sense of "What if I change my life?" Well, to change your life, you have to almost die in the sense that the witches known as leaving the ego, which is death itself. To achieve that, it's not really die, is a lifelong effort. You see, we have no precise answers, people want a program they would like "Ok, step one, step two and three and four and follows the five. " Well do not work that way at all. It is an extremely difficult proposition to explain that this is a way of life, not just something you do in your spare time. All your life is involved in this, body, mind and spirit or whatever you want to define. HE: So many people want to join the world of sorcerers. So many people, when they heard they were going to be in the program, began arriving at the local library and ask "Will you come Taisha and Florinda to our city?" They just have a tremendous, tremendous interest in what you do and yet there is no way the average person can do something even close to what you do. FD: I just returned from Mexico, in fact just got here. An hour ago I returned from Mexico. Carlos Castaneda was there with and talked to several people and always the same, you know. "What can we do to join this world?" Well ... "Why are you different from all other wizards, the different lineages, the lineages of animal companions?" Well Carlos is different in the sense that he has written these books. These books are obviously publicly available, and books, and I'm not saying that you know, the book does not follow any line, but in the books, is very clearly established that involves being in that world. People, I think, is wrong to see that the procedures, not procedures, but there ... is a path clearly outlined in the sense that we have cut the world without us fully withdrawn from the world. Another point is that people when they say "I want to join the world of wizards, I need a teacher, I need a guru, so did you." Yes, of course we had, but it was very lonely, come on, is a very lonely battle. People always talk in terms of "Good is the group is the group of Castaneda." Well, no group. We spent three days in Mexico more difficult explaining that no group. There is a place that Charles called the place of the second attention, the place of no pity, no compassion in the sense that we can afford to be compassionate, have compassion or pity for our fellow man when we have not changed ourselves. And there is this place, no matter who we are in Mexico, Los Angeles, San Francisco, where we met See? Is this place where all people get together and say, "The outside world" if any place can be called, was a dichotomy. Join us, if only for a moment. Things that are involved in this ... as the first thing I tell people is that they have to recap their lives. One of the main say "procedures" to truly examine our lives. Browse our lives in detail, not an analysis, say, psychological or research ourselves. It is far from that. It's a full review of what we are in terms of how we learned since we were three or four years old, to manipulate the world and our fellow humans and becomes very clear as we learn these patterns, and what we do is we want to rid ourselves of those patterns. If we can not divest of these patterns, at least take a second, or guess, a momentary opportunity not react the same way they always react. According to Don Juan, they say our energy, say, 90% of our energy is involved in the presentation of self. Because anything that is out there can really get to us. We are so immersed in how others see us, how we behave, either physically or emotionally. The idea of \u200b\u200bthe presentation of self takes away all our energy, all our efforts. It is as if we were bound, we are closed to anything that may come. Of course we immediately dismiss visions "Oh good, something happened, that was what it was." Whether in dreams or in daily life to be awake. HE: In this summary, I think it was in the book Taisha, Taisha or maybe he did, you have to sum up each person you've ever met in your life. FD: As I want ... Taisha's book ... basically, it's .... deals with the recap. HE: My problem is with my work, I do for a living, as a physician, I have met with more than 500.000 people in my past twenty years. DF: (Laughs) HE: I can not recapitulate the people I saw yesterday, let alone the 100,000 th person I saw in 1975. FD: Oh no, "But see? Instead of saying that, you could say, well, you certainly could do an attempt as you say, by the kind of job you have. Say, I'm sure you have a way and a very elaborate routine of what works in your line of work. HE: Absolutely. FD: I mean it has to be, otherwise you could not survive. So that's your public persona. Let us say, in your private life, how you deal with your peers, your wife, your parents, your children, do not know ... in terms of how you related with the world, but you see that there are certain patterns that are recurrent, the way we interact with our peers, which is always to protect the ego. We are always trying to protect the ego. If attacked or somehow threatened, we immediately have that, say, the backing of ways to repair the damage emotionally, what works for us, but not good for the body. See? The body gets these shots. According to Don Juan, he said that ills and disease did not really exist in their world because they are basically ... I do not mean that they are self - inflicted because that's going too far, but we ourselves sick with stress. And the stress is generated basically because the ego can not handle the outside world. HE: All these things that the ego does to keep himself, his self - importance, leakage power, is not that correct?. FD: What are the energy drains? For Don Juan, witchcraft was a world power. Basically a warlock you are interested in viewing, watching ... do not see, to perceive, to perceive energy directly. HE: And we are born with that power, we have enough energy when we are born ... FD: All of us, no matter what we are, we all have that heritage, we are beneficiaries. We are energy fields. HE: And squander that energy. FD: Exactly. HE: ... to maintain self - importance, self-image. FD: The idea of \u200b\u200bbeing, the idea of \u200b\u200bour self-image, whatever that this entails. HE: And we can recapture that energy to recap our lives the best way?. FD: No warranty. No. It's just a procedure to at least pause for a moment before we want to repeat our habitual behavior in terms of our presentation of self. Let's say if we are in the world, in a job, someone insults us and says "Look you really did not do a good job" See?. Emotions, is when you can say "What a fool, do not know what he was talking about" Do you understand? "Indeed it is what I'm doing, no matter, I do not affect" But the body gets that hit, "What see? Especially our energy body and that is exactly what Don Juan was interested ... But it happens, no matter how the world values \u200b\u200byou do not really matter, because either way are only an ideal of valuing you. HE: Is there any particular part of the body where we store these energy blows?. FD: Well it depends. Usually those hits store energy in our weakest part, either in our bodies, I mean, it depends ... For example, if you're under stress, say they feel some pain, or feel drained, you get a cold, I mean you know your body better than anyone. Well, that's exactly where the blow is coming. HE: But it is not universal, is not in the nervous system or tendons, or vascular system?. "It varies from person to person?. FD: It varies from person to person. For example, I have very weak bronchi, when I vacuum, I start coughing really, really bad so be it something physical or is really stressed, you see, I start coughing. Of course in Los Angeles, very easily due to smog. HE: Sure. Well, in the world of sorcerers, so I read the book either Charles or your book or Taisha's book or hear you speak, I think you guys are energy was provided by the nagual ... FD: Yes. HE: or the other witches. FD: When we were in his company, we were running ... not that we were paying the, we were running with their energy. For us to find them, being in their world, which is the world's second attention, we were paying their energy, if, indeed they do, there must be the total y. .. one of the interesting things, this idea that when we give talks, people are ... are extremely cautious, and of course have every right to be. When I met Don Juan's world was no chance of being cautious, or entered it or had no game. not say that this has to be but for us, for me, in my case, there was no other way. Yes, of course I resented it, was not resented it, but there was, you know ... There was really no doubt but it was extremely, let's say in my aberrant behavior patterns. Because from my perspective, I was the greatest thing that ever lived, I mean, the world validated my idea of \u200b\u200bbeing. I grew up in South America, had advantages for my own appearance. Children know how to handle it extremely well, I was president of my elementary school from kindergarten through sixth grade, I was in Venezuelan schools, was ... very few children had blond, I mean, it was treated as a small goddess and I thought that was my inherent right. You see, and then of course then, as adults change, alter those patterns, but that inherently lies this self - importance, you know "I'm the greatest thing that ever lived." HE: There are people in society, taking the opposite view, who ... FD: Yes, but you see what I say ... Taking the opposite view ... I'm telling you in a very exaggerated, it does not matter that our idea of \u200b\u200bbeing positive or negative. HE: Ok. FD: The power drain is exactly the same, which is to maintain, have a total loss of picture or a giant idea of being, does not really matter, the power drain is the same, because we still have this idea ... We have to defend this idea of \u200b\u200bwhat we are, what is the vision of our fellows. Inherently there is nothing to support it. We know certain things, yes, we know that to some degree we're smart, we know how to do certain ... Yes, but I will not talk about it, I'm talking about our involvement with the self. The idea that we are somehow special. We are always special, you see? What Don Juan did with us, bombing the idea of \u200b\u200bbeing special. He said "If you are really so special in the world, the world can not work." What is absolutely true. That's why, say from a human point of view, basically, do not really know how to interact with each other because each one of us always defending something. HE: How can we stop this?, I mean, we recap, but I, in my own life, just let me give an example, I am sure this is for almost everyone, the wrap takes time. It seems that the world of sorcerers is a world where people have lots of free time with nothing better to do, nothing calls to do otherwise. You can go and dream for nine days, or disappear from the world for ten years, or how they want, but the average person with a job, a family ... FD: I totally de acuerdo contigo. HE: ...trata de recapitular y lo mas que consigue es media hora si está de suerte y a ese paso le podría llevar dos vidas completas el recapitular algo. FD: Precisamente, pero por ejemplo, mira, yo he estado en el mundo de los brujos quiero decir , ni siquiera quiero mencionarlo... son ya mas de veinte años ¿Ok? Eso es una vida. La cosa es, mi vida la he utilizado siguiendo el camino. Yo he tomado esa decisión. Eso es todo lo que hago. Hay gente en nuestro grupo que trabaja de las ¿que? 9 a las 5 o a las 6, las horas que sean. Tienen trabajos totalmente comunes. Bueno, uno de ellos - Yo traduzco, me encanta hacer traducciones, traduzco del Español al Ingles o viceversa o al Alemán. So that is my income. I need to live. I'm certainly in the world in the sense that I am ... We have not withdrawn from the world, but we are in the world in the sense of how we react as our neighbors, we have reduced it to a minimum. not really matters and what we do. As we hit. It is because we have succeeded in something, no, we're going to fight this way. People who have a family ... I was just talking ... in Mexico was this man, has 5 children, a wife, a lovely woman, and she of course feels, it feels completely threatened by his interest in the world of sorcerers, in the world of Don Juan and I said "No, but that is totally absurd, because whatever he pull of this world, if only summing up, if he actually does it properly and is truly and sincerely interested, his life as father and husband has to improve. And the simple fact that the change will force you to change. " Because especially in a relationship of husband - wife thing: "He has to, if I'm going to put this and this in, I'm going to change, he has to do it." In the world of witchcraft is not working well. You change for the pure pleasure of change. What the other person does not concern you. Your behavior change will force the other person, like it or not, to change. I can tell you with absolute sincerity because that is exactly what happens in our world. I used to complain endlessly "Well she is not doing his job, he is not doing his job, I'm trying to change, I'm doing this," See? the "I" "I" "I" never stops. HE: Yes. FD: And then when Don Juan said, "You know, you're full of crap. Give everyone you try a blank check. Whatever you do, and it nearly kill you and hurt you, it has nothing to do with you. You change by pure change. " And indeed, he was right. If we change. The "I" changes, your forces the world around you change. And that is my point, my idea, whether we are interested in the world from an ecological standpoint, from a psychological point of view, whatever we are doing in the world. We are not willing to change ourselves: We try to implement changes to the other without changing us or just us - we say we've changed. In the body, the energy body knows when someone has not changed, when it is not sincere enough or is not correct. Yes, they are fighting, I agree, but the change has to ... we must change ourselves as individuals in order to affect the world around us - without waiting for them to change. HE: Our guest today in The Earth Mystery Show here on KVMR 89.5 FM is Florinda Donner. Florinda has been in the world of witches during the last twenty years. If you've just joined us, she has written several books, the most recent "Being in the Dream" is available in bookstores and also wrote "The Dream of the Witch" and "Shabono." Speaking of change, you mentioned in Arizona, the Rim Institute the first time I heard, that men have more or less screwed up the world and it is easier for women to dream a new world and change it. Could you talk a little about the role of women?. FD: No, no, no, I do not say it was easier for women. No, no, no. Women can not do them alone, you see, I think I'm explaining or o. .. I do not mean I'm being misunderstood because it would be absurd, no. What I'm saying is: yes, take the male principle, say, that has brought us to where we are today. What I am saying is that women have much to contribute. With what we contribute, in everyday life say not very different from what men have done. Yes, women have advanced greatly by the pressure they have placed on the male part. But we copy their paradigm, the paradigm that governs us is, no matter what aspect of life is a male paradigm. We are basically a male universe. When the universe, according to the witches ... the universe is basically a conscious universe and it's almost as if it were reversed in the sense that what governs us is only the male principle. What I say is that it must be balanced and can not be balanced by asking the man say ... I do not speak of any man in particular. This must change, if only you look around, you'll see we've really screwed up the planet, I mean, there's no doubt about it. All our institutions are simply not enough ... Sick!. HE: I agree, perhaps misunderstood what you said in Arizona, but I also felt that you made a call for women to stop being slaves, to stop accepting the paradigm of a masculine universe when the universe is actually a female and began to dream of what the Universe should be for us. FD: Well, what should be, no such words such as "What should I be?" For us to survive as a species have to evolve. You see, we have to evolve and do not say ideologies evolve. The ideologies that govern us have been exhausted. Just go out with a different version of what has been for the past 5,000 years. We have not really done anything new. I do not know if I mentioned this, we have to try something new. We can not try what will be, what will be, come again, except it has to be some change. For example the dinosaurs, they tried to fly. They did not try the wings, the wings were the result of that attempt. The same goes for us, and women have, say, a biological constitution to evolve. That's all I said. But for women to achieve that has to have the time and the protection of men. They need that time to govern not only ... look no matter what, say how sensitive you are ... you as a human being, say, your relationship with your family ... that's not ... enough to make a difference. There are a few groups, if the man is totally agree that something needs to change. Are willing to give a female or woman, as the time for saying "Yes, you're in charge" but I do not mean in terms of "You're in charge" of new terminology that is male. Nobody is responsible. You must be a joint process to try to change and that change can only be achieved by changing oneself. The emphasis on the ego, the ego has to go. I think one of the reasons why we are so enthralled with the idea of \u200b\u200bbeing is because we have nothing left to protect. You say something like for early man, prehistoric man, the idea of \u200b\u200bthe cave. It's almost like a territoriality. We treat the ego as a territory because they do not defend the cave. This issue has been addressed. So we stand in the most exorbitant and an exorbitant price as much as the idea of \u200b\u200bbeing and if this idea is out, something would happen. I know because it happened to the witches. HE: Well, you mentioned "trying" and the word "intent" is used from the outset in all the books of Carlos Castaneda and is mentioned in your book and that word is something I think is difficult to understand for the average person. .. FD: It's hard to understand for ourselves. Is because it is extremely subtle, extremely powerful and yet it is not ... The attempt to speak to you, say directly to the energy body. We all have an energy body. We give voice to our effort and still not express what a psychological process and still sounds ... You see it is very difficult and I'm not trying to say, you know it is very esoteric or abstract, it is not, is so simple. I think its simplicity is what makes it so difficult to understand and then then ... I'm talking about ... sounds like I'm ... HE: Let me see if I can say how I understand it and that is that the "intent" is a spirit, an energy that permeates the universe and that this spirit or energy that is benevolent, wish us well and We throw things in the face, every day, every night, all the time, which are for our own good and we as energy beings, and egos, we ignore it, we let it go, paying attention to our own ego, our own life and ignore what the intent of the universe is. FD: Ok, I want to correct one thing, this idea that it is benevolent. No, it's just energy. It is neither good nor bad, it's just energy. We make this interpretation. Energy is energy, something that is out there in the universe, creating the universe. Say almost from the astronomical point of view. HE: I used the word benevolent just because there is so much people who are afraid of the world of witchcraft, sorcery assume that has something to do with evil. FD: The witchcraft of course entails a whole range of ... When the New World was discovered by the English had a total ... was a Catholic perspective in which the idea of \u200b\u200bgood and evil is so prevalent, it was impossible for them to understand anything else, so all that was destroyed in terms of a knowledge system was so huge, you know ?. As an example, in Yucatan you of course ... You know the old English ... the priest Diego de Landa and whatever they have done in the new world was so extremely negative in the sense that they burned ... say that the Maya in Yucatan, Diego de Landa libraries burned. It took four months of daily fires to burn all the manuscripts. I mean, that is inconceivable in terms of the kind of knowledge that was lost had nothing to do with our Western point of view. HE: Well, there, there are still people like you and your group to try and preserve small pieces of this knowledge and who write books and bring some of this knowledge back to us, but there are obviously like you said the value of four months of books that no one will ever see again ... FD: Yeah ... HE: Is it your intention and of your group carrying all this stuff to press for the average person can read it and learn it? FD: Our attempt ... interpretation is basically, I mean that whatever we wrote a highly personal in the sense that is exactly what has happened to us. In terms of what we know about the witches from the lineage of Don Juan, is only one line which we know, "You see? I'm sure there are many other systems of knowledge that express, say, the terminology, the vocabulary is different, but ultimately the intent is the same. It is not that different knowledge systems ... this system of knowledge is extremely pragmatic. Truly gives us the way, if you're interested, to follow certain ... I do not mean rules and regulations, since there is none, but gives a very pragmatic way of trying to implement something that other traditions can only read about. rituals, exercises, if well only to engage our attention, but ultimately all that matters in our experience is that change inherent in truth we do, with no reward in sight. There is nothing that guarantees that we will achieve nothing in this regard ... I emphasize this over and over again to people who are interested, I can not guarantee that all the work you put into it - you will succeed. I myself am not I know!. If I do the way he did Don Juan, if that was a success anyway, but at least the way, whatever you're trying or whatever we are doing is infinitely more exciting for us that if I follow the path of my parents and I'm not criticizing my parents, I love my parents very much, I'm not criticizing, I just want ... I want my life ended differently as I know they'll end their lives. HE: Let me a minute to tell our audience who are listening to KVMR 89.5 FM and our guest today is Florinda Donner, she has written her newest book "Be the Dream --- An Introduction to World of the Witches "and also wrote" The Dream of the Witch "and" Shabono. " Speaking of our parents, all you had to die to the world in one way or another to become witches ... Carol Tiggs said she was in a different place, in a different world for ten years. What is your relationship with your family before?. FD: With my family before?. In fact I think I'm the only one with any kind of relationship with the family because of my circumstances. When I entered, at first, if no such thing, I entered the world of witches, I cut myself on purpose, most people I knew including my parents course. My parents did not know for about ten or twelve years if I was alive or dead. It was a very calculated move, given that from the point of view of the witches for us to change, for us to be able to change, we need to isolate ourselves from people who know us well because it is not do so maliciously, but we prevent change because they already know who we are and nothing you do will make them change their minds. I'm not talking in terms of "Ok, you are not able to do certain things" no, I'm talking about a fundamental change in our energy. HE: They will strengthen your self-image that they knew before they changed. FD: And then I remember that on occasion Florinda said "Look, it does not matter, why not just go visit your parents" and then ... you know ... had been working, you know I was doing ... was an anthropologist, was actually in contact with a brother and occasionally let him know I wanted to at least reassure them that he had not died. I said I was involved in something I had to isolate myself. Personally, I had parents who were extremely sympathetic and say, at least from my perspective, they got along well. When you say, I reestablished contact with my parents, was extremely interesting to see that my relationship with my parents was much more loving and than I ever was before. HE: You mentioned seeing, and a witch, a warlock to be a person who can change their perceptions at will ... Warlocks are, I gather, the human as a luminous egg of strings of energy and in that luminous egg there is a place you call the assemblage point where we perceive and if you move it that assemblage point perceive things quite differently, are in a different world. And I assume that when we dream of the assemblage point is moving a bit and that is why one is able to dream "awake", you are able to dream consciously, and that the scenes of the dream world of his books and I've heard seem very, very real, more real than they are for most of us. FD: Ok, let's say ... one of the ... say not the most important, but one of the greatest achievements of witches is true that the world of the second attention, the world of daydreaming, "dreaming" as stated in Castaneda's most recent book, is about you want to have the same control you have in the world of everyday life, which have in dreams. And I'm talking about dreams in the sense that it is as a kind of ... say that our ordinary dreams are basically ... You see, Don Juan was never interested in the content of our dreams, was interested in the control of the assemblage point. As you said, the assemblage point moves, it moves naturally vibrates in dreams. Crosses into new energy bands, new worlds are being ... say, not being constructed, we enter the different layers of the onion. A witch wants to keep that assemblage point long enough and that's basically what it means, what is stalking ... you can set your point of attachment to a new position for as long as you want. And this is where the control enters the assemblage point, because you fit new worlds and you live in that world as to how you live in this world. For example, the world of Don Juan, the world of sorcerers of don Juan was the world of the second attention. They were perennially in the world of the second attention. HE The question arises, I'm sure you've been asked this many times ... What is the difference between the world of the second attention or daydreaming and lucid dream that many people experience routinely?. FD: Well, the world's second focus is a real world. I think lucid dreamers enter the world of the second attention, but not long enough. They can not hold because, as you already said earlier, we all have the inherent ability to enter this path. The wizard extends that capability and totally dominates the effect that manipulates the world the way he handled the world of everyday life. He is a teacher, in the sense of how in or out of this world, when a lucid dreamer is making ... by chance. Veras then, whether we have a kind of psychological disorder that will lead us into that world, hunger, drugs, alcohol, I think the emphasis of our society, say the drug fixation is due basically they know that there is something out there that they want. You see, energy know that whatever this world is not enough. So they try to do it artificially, and of course with that, have been cut yet, because they can clear the everyday world or concerns with the everyday world either taking drugs or smoking marijuana or hashish. I mean it's amazing what you eat. Now of course we turned it into something completely illegal and people get to pharmaceutical drugs, legal drugs. Which are as harmful as any other. HE: To enter the second attention one has to acquire enough power, but as I mentioned earlier, you asked and you provided the energy was given to you by witches, warlocks. The average person does not have that benefit, nobody will give a boost of energy to the point where they can move their assemblage point. FD: But the energy boost was also ... say that when I found the world of Don Juan, was ... of course I entered their world, but I had to do my part. Because if you did not make it and that had to do in terms of, we had his example in front of us. Ok let's say that when we leave the world and give readings, basically, the audience is extremely, well, I do not want no, I mean it's not that she has never had that meeting ... The audience is extremely say ... HE : Interested. FD: Interested and also very incredulous. And quite ... very often unhappy precisely because this dimension ... "Well, you had a Don Juan, you had the old Florinda You had this and that. "Well what? At this point all you have in front is me or Carlos or Taisha. Or Carol Tiggs. I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination that we are ... in fact I repeat it again and again ... we do not have the ability or power that Don Juan and his group had to really make you enter into that world but we certainly are presenting the procedures for doing so. Because in terms of ... if we were there with Don Juan, but then we had to do the job, and look we took 30 years to do what we're trying to do. At least we are consistent enough and we present something to the world. And I think that this is again the difference between men and women, men speak of the fight, watch ... Carlos Castaneda's books are a testament to that. He talks about the process from the very beginning. Well, we three women, after living in this world for over 20 years, we can finally talk about the process that we have given full body, and this is one of the basic differences, I think between being male and being a woman and that is what Don Juan said. Again, I repeat this again and again, many men I've been extremely angry with us because suddenly the idea was "Come on, this is a world just for women!" It is a world of women, nor is a world men. It is completely ... I do not mean "integrated" because it has such a psychological burden if ... but a harmonious world in the sense that they are ... none is more than anyone else. The only thing that counts in our world is energy. That the nagual is a man is due to its own energy and also because as women, Don Juan always said that whether you're in the world of witches or the world of everyday life, "You are crazy. You need the man power to function properly "And from a feminist point of view this was one of the hardest things to accept in full. Now is not that is accepting this in terms of defeat, but as an expression of fact. We need the world of man to make the world sober. I can see it over and over again, I talk a lot with many women, friends, small groups of women and believe me when we're all together, it is so easy to get out of control. Everyone is thinking "We're having so much" No, It's a lack of control! No control is a lack of sobriety that the male principle, it is, brings to the world, whether the world of everyday life or the world of sorcery, brings the simplicity that is needed, no matter where we are acting. HE: The word sober ... umm ... could use the word "responsibility" or "sense of responsibility" instead of "sobriety". FD: No, let's say, no, no, no. I am specifically using "sobriety" is a sober. HE: I know you're using that word, but for most people the word means not being drunk. FD: Excuse me?, Oh, drunkenness ... oh so, so, has that connotation. No, no, no, no, no ... I think not ... I think that men drink more than women. No, no, no, no, it has nothing to do with it ... not ... yes, sober means, if not to be drunk ... if ... HE: Only means, to me it means a liability or an internal management to be fully responsible and be consistent. FD: No, no ... no, I do not want to use "responsible" at all. No, no, no. It's kind of consistency. Sobriety in the abstract, is sobriety ... no ... no, no ... I think we have popularized the word alcoholism. But yeah, I get to the original meaning of sobriety. HE: Ok. Well all this world is so fascinating, so interesting, I certainly would not argue with you whether or not I am a total ... total believer in him. I, like many other listeners would like to have some way to get to it, but obviously in my world, I have power to dream the way you dream and do not seem able to have the opportunity to acquire it. FD: No, no, no. The thing is ... You see, you do not you want to remove from the world to follow, say the exercises or to follow something that ... whatever you think you do. No, in your everyday world you can be ... What is your job description?. HE: I'm a doctor. FD: A doctor, what do you do on the radio?, What do you call when you do radio?, "When you work in radio?. HE: This is called self - entertainment. FD: Auto - entertainment, Ok. As self - entertainer, you can become a witch car - entertainment. You see, whatever you do, you do your job or whatever you do ... That makes your art. And that's basically what we're concerned. That is what witchcraft is. You turn it into an art. Whether you make it through the summary of your life, trying to stop the involvement with the self. Believe me, that's all it takes to make the world open. HE: I love the concept of controlled folly. Since reading that, I thought of the many times that life really is controlled folly. FD: Exactly. HE: But the wild, imaginative world of "Being in Dreaming" is one I think many of us would like to enter. Although it was once, like movies and I know you'll like going to the movies, but being able to say, go to another world, the world of inorganic beings, something, and come back and just remember from time to when before going to sleep and dream and forget everything. FD: But you see ... That sounds like a. .. say that because the work is presented in a certain light, because that's my choice and my delight. But the idea of \u200b\u200bentering the world of dream, see, that's exactly what I talked about in my reading. You see, it would be interesting to do this for a while and then return to the world of everyday life - Well, that's not possible. You see, I can talk about the world of inorganic beings, I can talk about the world of witches in Mexico ... see, for me, this world does not stop, it's real. I am in that world, even now while I'm talking to you. For other people, would be like a holiday and then life continues. Well, for us, does not continue. The horror is, because in some strange way, this is a terrifying world. HE: When you say goes on ... gave me a lot of curiosity, your group is the latest in a long line of witches Toltecs. Will there be any continuation or you are the last of this line? Is this the end?. FD: Don Juan le dijo a Carlos que él era el último de su linaje. Eso es lo último que supimos de Don Juan. HE: Entonces tu intento, cuando hablas conmigo en la radio o le hablas a grupos de gente es... ¿Que?. FD: ¿Mi intento? que vamos a... digamos, que vamos... como alguien dijo en México: “Bueno, ¿De qué se trata con ustedes ahora? ¿Porqué salen al público ahora?" y lo cito. Yo dije que salíamos al público porque queremos, digamos, reunir... esa es la palabra errónea porque parecería que estuviéramos buscando discípulos; no lo estamos. Queremos al menos, digamos, crear una masa crítica. Si existe una masa crítica in any kind of business, any kind of change will be given. We need a critical mass of stakeholders that at least take us seriously. And I mean it as a hobby, but seriously as a profound change. HE: Say you have a critical mass of people who are recapitulating their lives, who try to belittle your self - importance, his ego. They are doing the magical passes we have not discussed, moves to increase personal energy. Say you have a group of these people, Are you able to take advantage of the energy of these people for their own purposes?. FD: It is ... look, "Are you married?. HE: Yes indeed. FD: Do you have children?. HE: Four. FD: Pardon?. HE: Four children. FD: Four children. Look, if you take me seriously, I can guarantee that your life and the lives of your family changes. HE: I've noticed that with just a magical passes and the thought of trying, that phenomenal things happen. FD: To what extent is this change, only you can decide. See? So I say that this idea of \u200b\u200ba guru, someone to take you by the hand is ... HE: No, but I ask specifically, when you have a group of people, a critical mass, Would you use your energy?. If you were the group of witches, not you personally. FD: Of course, I mean energy in the sense ... we can not use your energy. I could only use your energy if you're ... say, if you're stripped of your ego. That is the energy we want, because that is the energy that goes to fully open your parameters of perception, which will get you out of your idea of \u200b\u200bbeing. It's just energy. Not what I say or what I do. You have to ... You see, you have to join me. HE: Yes. FD: And that's what we want, that is why we have come to light. HE: Where is Don Juan and Don Genaro now?. FD: Well ... I do not think ... hmmm. I already have, you know? I already say, I already talked about it and not explained properly. They have taken the leap into the inconceivable. They have jumped in terms of ... if we put it in a kind of physical term ... say they have made the leap into the unknown. What is finally the unknown? Are they stuck in the world of inorganic beings? We believe, yes. So Don Juan and his group finally succeeded?. In a bizarre way that is ... say ... is a world of prisoners just as it is shown daily. Is another system. HE: Well the reason I asked you about power we, the people you are listening, people who may be trying to increase your energy level is in case you could use our power to rescue Don Juan in the world of inorganic beings, and that Carlos rescued world. FD: No, I do not ... in fact we do not. I think at some point, I think this misunderstanding comes I think of, say, "Yes, if we have enough energy to jump and get him out, but it's almost like a metaphor, see? There ... do not really know what I ... in terms of how to ... You see, we do not have the vocabulary to truly describe even the world of men inorganic. We describe that world in metaphors, though not metaphorical or as something that is known to us because we have no language to describe something that is unknown to us. It can only be described from what is already known to us. So if, at some level, yes. If we had enough energy could, jumping, whatever that means, that leap ... formulate only say ... as a doctor you probably know. HE: What I think is that umm ... as mentioned earlier in this discussion, or interview, the attempt throws us all the time in unknown ways. This is a camouflaged universe is a universe of energy, but is disguised as a whole what we perceive. Occasionally cracks open on the screen, there is a tear in the screen that lets us know that camouflage is not real. FD: Yes, exactly. HE: And those bits of intent, or bits of energy, or whatever you call them, in the dream world you would call browsers. FD: Yes HE: But if you could hook up with that browser, you will lead to another world, the world where the browser is. FD: Exactly. HE: How can the average person, with just listening to this talk on the radio right now, how can this person see, feel, sense when an event is something that the attempt is throwing in his face to hook and not miss that?. FD: You need energy for that. You see, that's what I'm saying. If you're stripped of the idea of \u200b\u200bbeing that is known as ... just yesterday talking to these people in Mexico ... exactly, I mean almost word for word exactly the same question and I said "Well that's premature." You know, they are all interested in the world, you know? Jumping into the second attention, meet the inorganic beings, but it is absurd to talk about that scenario if they have not been stripped of the idea of \u200b\u200bbeing See?. That's what I mean, the most important step for us is the idea of \u200b\u200blosing self - importance of reducing the ego to nothing. Never going to lose at all, although it is possible. From my perspective Castaneda has no ego at all. The gap is so afraid to be with him - is frightening. HE: I can understand. FD: At the same time, is the most addictive, say, a substance that exists - a person who has no ego. It's a total addiction. HE: Is not human life, the ego in human life, the addiction that we are all addicts?. FD: Yes, at the end of everything, yeah. I think it is. HE: The listeners who hear this are umm ... are very sophisticated. Have heard many things and you say that the same questions arise all the time and hopefully this conversation, this interview, has tried to give you the same questions always hear, because that is what interests us all and that's what everyone wants to know. And you have to get rid bursts of this self - importance of the ego, which is a lesson of all religions in the world, all say the same thing. But in practical steps, if I'm understanding the world of witchcraft, is the summing up our lives ... FD: Exactly. HE: Go through everything, every event that we remember and try and see the patterns that have been addicted and trying to recapture the energy of these patterns, then we've done that successfully we will have enough energy to see the attempt when thrown at our faces, or catch one of these browsers in a dream. FD: Precisely ... in a dream or while awake. We happen all the time. Don Juan ... Carlos described in his book, I think, is the cubic centimeter of chance that strikes us in the most incredible moments and if you have the energy to catch it, go for it. For me, for example, go tell the world of witches was a decision of a millisecond, "Yes, I'll go with that woman, I will take with me, I'll go." You see, if I can ... if I take the time to revisit certain moments, crucial moments my life ... say the chances of taking the wrong decision or taking the wrong road were so many fear that kills me. Just thinking about it gives me migraines. Why is this sudden decision. You think at the moment is nothing, but it is monumental. And that is what this idea of, you know to try ... something speaks to us directly, and usually are very concerned with all the worries of the world - to realize. HE: I still like a human, I do not understand how we got rid of the worries of the world. I mean, if you went with that woman, or say, in my life, someone came and said "Would you go with me to Mexico, I would like you to start with this new life I have had all the thoughts of the world "What about my children, what about my wife, who is with my work?" and follow and follow, never stop talking about it in my head, and even then this opportunity could be the opportunity you are talking to, who never comes back again. FD: It will not be so "do not you come with me to Mexico." I do not think ... has nothing to do with it. For example, in my case, had nothing to do with ... was a question of "Can you take me to Hermosillo?" or something like that. Or you know "I can contact someone?" - Is thus delineated. Those moments do not come and "Ok, come with me to Mexico, I will introduce the world of witchcraft!" There is not a. .. never going to get there. No. Look, even the idea of \u200b\u200b... you, only you can say, the power, ease of actually doing something different from yourself and your life and no one is finally going to help with that. Don Juan finally did not help us in the sense that we had to do for ourselves. Let's not trying to diminish the importance of these people, I'm just trying to emphasize the amount of work and dedication that is involved in something like that. Willpower, willpower and true total abandonment until the end do not give a damn what happens to you. You see and of course for a person who is totally alone, no responsibilities, is a much more simple to make, but you've got your liability to you. You can make the lives of your children and your wife's life a work of art. The mere fact that ... c'mon, I'm not speaking from a moral standpoint or a religious viewpoint. I'm speaking from an energy standpoint. For you will and to do everything in your power to give the best to them, not even say in terms of giving them the life they are accustomed, no. I mean from an energy standpoint. That in itself is so liberating,! will take you to another universe will see, the idea that there is another universe - is right next to us. It is a matter of perception. It has nothing to do with that suddenly will be brought into the world of inorganic beings that will take you to the world of the second attention. I live in the second attention, as I speak with you ... is the prism, the way I look at the world has been changed by means of energy. HE: Well, I hope that you accept an invitation to come to our region. There was so much emotion because you would be on the radio today I know that if we could take you to Nevada City would be even more exciting in person to the people who can speak with you as we talked about today. FD: You're in Nevada City?. He: Yes FD: Where is Nevada City?. HE: It is northeast of Sacramento to Lake Tahoe, on Route 80. FD: I thought you were talking for a moment ... you were talking about the state of Nevada. HE: No, Nevada City is in California and your friend Randy is now living here or here ... FD: Oh, do you know Randy Fuller?. HE: He called me this morning. FD: Oh he called you. Yes, he called and left a message on my machine. HE: So, I know who invited you, so I'll invite you on behalf of our radio audience and myself to come here. FD: Yes definitely know ... I think it will come as we come to the Rim Institute. HE: He would be happy to make arrangements for you. FD: And have a weekend session and finally delve into ... I want to bring the chacmools. Chacmools There are two large and two small chacmools definitely want to make you work hard. HE: Well ... FD: No, no, I mean because ... HE: I'll take that as a promise then. FD: It's a promise. HE: Thank you. FD: Thank you!. HE: Florinda, has been so nice to have you in the air and we are honored, thanks again. FD: And I hope we meet soon. HE: I hope so too. FD: Ok, bye, bye. Thanks. HE: Thank you again. (End of tape) KVMR Radio Rights Reserved Translated by Alfonso Estudillo R. |
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